tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post2928718669368930140..comments2024-02-03T17:02:45.046-08:00Comments on Giorgione et al...: Giorgione and Cima da ConeglianoDr. Fhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-3191685135225057672011-03-20T13:09:14.758-07:002011-03-20T13:09:14.758-07:00Madeleine:
I looked it over and will comment ther...Madeleine:<br /><br />I looked it over and will comment there.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-61125854567757931742011-03-19T07:20:15.088-07:002011-03-19T07:20:15.088-07:00Hello Frank,
New developments on my blog, if you&...Hello Frank,<br /><br />New developments on my blog, if you're interested:<br /><br />http://marie-madeleine.over-blog.net/<br /><br />MadeleineMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-15316481717898802082011-03-17T14:18:51.184-07:002011-03-17T14:18:51.184-07:00All the best, Franck.
MadeleineAll the best, Franck.<br /><br />MadeleineMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-10171964046545596922011-03-15T12:33:45.681-07:002011-03-15T12:33:45.681-07:00Madeleine:
I have looked at the Adorations by Gio...Madeleine:<br /><br />I have looked at the Adorations by Giotto, Lorenzo Monaco, and Giorgione (Catena) and can see how you could identify the youngest of the Magi as a Queen. However, I am not convinced. In an age when men wore long hair it is possible that a beardless, young man could resemble a woman, especially if he was a saintly figure in biblical dress. I am not an expert on the subject of facial depictions but will try to look into it further. <br /><br />In my writings I say that I agree with those who identify the "Laura" as Mary Magdalen. I did not invent the interpretation. Thanks for your input on the laurel as a symbol of the Resurrection. In one of my sources the laurel is a "symbol of eternity, being evergreen, and of chastity since its leaves never decay." <br /><br />I do not agree with your syllogism since it is by no means clear that the third Magi is Mary Magdalene. By the way, Wolfgang Eller in his Giorgione (2007) is the one who attributes the "Adoration of the Magi" to Catena. It might please you to know that Eller gives the "Noli me Tangere" to Giorgione.<br /><br />Finally, I agree with scholars like Salvatore Settis and Mino Gabriele who argue that the "Three Philosophers" are the Magi. Even if Giorgione did paint the "Adoration", there is no reason why he couldn't have painted a different version.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-70076544466645694392011-03-13T10:14:15.805-07:002011-03-13T10:14:15.805-07:00then Tuesday, Franck.
I read your article on Laur...then Tuesday, Franck.<br /><br />I read your article on Laura and I want to make one small clarification: the laurel is a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Laurel#Symbolism<br /><br />MadeleineMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-23579735206001718922011-03-13T09:46:07.469-07:002011-03-13T09:46:07.469-07:00Madeleine:
I welcome your comments. I will be awa...Madeleine:<br /><br />I welcome your comments. I will be away until Tuesday but will get back to you then.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-92024503902449923152011-03-13T09:37:22.800-07:002011-03-13T09:37:22.800-07:00Franck,
If you fold up the collar, even the cloak...Franck,<br /><br />If you fold up the collar, even the cloak is the same:<br /><br />http://a34.idata.over-blog.com/1/00/82/27/000/lauraMM.jpg<br /><br />MadeleineMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-8285189083863194392011-03-13T09:20:35.818-07:002011-03-13T09:20:35.818-07:00What happened to my previous comment? I repost her...What happened to my previous comment? I repost here:<br /><br />I've never read either of "legends" about a queen mage who would Mary Magdalene. But I am obliged to note that this is really a queen mage, whether or not Mary Magdalene, on the paintings which I gave links. So it is a great mystery: why the painters between 1300 and 1450 were about all they painted a mage queen, a woman ? As these paintings were intended to be viewed by the clergy and the general public (including frescoes by Giotto) it seems that the Queen mage was known and officially accepted in their time! Why is she then became a black king, Balthazar? What do we want to hide?<br /><br />I hope not to have invaded your item with this unexpected topic of a queen mage but I thought it might interest you. And besides, if you want to develop a formal way, you are better placed than me to do and it is with great pleasure that I offer.<br /><br />Forgive me but I do not think the Three Philosophers are the three Magi: the philosopher standing in the middle did not match any of the Magi. There are two kings almost "Janus with two heads" with old beards + the queen mage. None of them is the philosopher with his red coat. See this:<br /><br />http://idata.over-blog.com/1/00/82/27/000/giorgioneCompare.jpg<br /><br />Also, I do not understand that this Adoration can be attributed to Catena.Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-1346673141849907172011-03-13T09:12:58.258-07:002011-03-13T09:12:58.258-07:00Franck,
A syllogism: if Laura is Mary Magdalene a...Franck,<br /><br />A syllogism: if Laura is Mary Magdalene and if Mary Magdalene is the queen mage, then Laura must be painted the same as the mage queen! For me there is no doubt:<br /><br />http://idata.over-blog.com/1/00/82/27/000/lauraMM.jpg<br /><br />;-)Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-14855184667591476072011-03-13T08:52:50.292-07:002011-03-13T08:52:50.292-07:00I've never read either of "legends" ...I've never read either of "legends" about a queen mage who would Mary Magdalene. But I am obliged to note that this is really a queen mage, whether or not Mary Magdalene, on the paintings which I gave links. So it is a great mystery: why the painters between 1300 and 1450 were about all they painted a mage queen, a woman ? As these paintings were intended to be viewed by the clergy and the general public (including frescoes by Giotto) it seems that the Queen mage was known and officially accepted in their time! Why is she then became a black king, Balthazar? What do we want to hide?<br /><br />I hope not to have invaded your item with this unexpected topic of a queen mage but I thought it might interest you. And besides, if you want to develop a formal way, you are better placed than me to do and it is with great pleasure that I offer.<br /><br />Forgive me but I do not think the Three Philosophers are the three Magi: the philosopher standing in the middle did not match any of the Magi. There are two kings almost "Janus with two heads" with old beards + the queen mage. None of them is the philosopher with his red coat. See this:<br /><br />http://idata.over-blog.com/1/00/82/27/000/giorgioneCompare.jpg<br /><br />Also, I do not understand that this Adoration can be attributed to Catena.Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-69658304525103378882011-03-13T07:32:15.398-07:002011-03-13T07:32:15.398-07:00Madeleine,
My focus is on the Tempest and you obv...Madeleine,<br /><br />My focus is on the Tempest and you obviously know much more about Mary Magdalene than I do, but in all the legends I have seen, I have never come across MM as one of the Magi. I have found a way to translate your blog so will take a closer look.<br /><br />In the meantime, you might be aware that I agree with those who believe that Giorgione's Three Philosophers are the three Magi at the outset of their journey. In that painting the youngest is dressed in green and white, the natural colors of myrrh. Why would Giorgione have taken such a different approach in this version?<br /><br />I took a good look at the National Gallery painting on the google Art project and it would appear that they are not all looking at the same thing. The standing man in green is looking at the youngest of the Magi. The one in the process of presenting his gift looks at the child. The others look down in reverence.<br /><br />Please don't ever apologize for your English.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-74606351085766474722011-03-13T00:20:46.544-08:002011-03-13T00:20:46.544-08:00Frank,
Yes, I affirm that the queen mage "is...Frank,<br /><br />Yes, I affirm that the queen mage "is" Mary Magdalene, the carrier of myrrh, and it was painted by the painters of the 14th century without a problem, apparently.<br /><br />On my blog you will find Mary Magdalene, painted by Giorgione. Note the green dress with a white border and you see this also on the queen mage just below at the right. Note also that the attitude is the same and the fact that this queen mage is one that will be replaced later by Balthazar, who offers the "myrrh" to Jesus (as Mary Magdalene). That's a lot of coincidences:<br /><br />http://marie-madeleine.over-blog.net/article-le-baume-de-la-reine-69023940.html<br /><br />But it's not just that Giorgione painted a queen mage (not a young mage, a woman). Until the year 1450, almost all the painters paint the queen, you will find many links on my article, like this:<br /><br />http://www.wga.hu/art/l/lorenzo/monaco/2/44monaco.jpg<br /><br />Why the white queen has been replaced by a black king? And why no one ever noticed this fact before me? And it is clear that this queen is joint with one of the kings (her husband?), and sometimes she has the same clothes as the Virgin, like this:<br /><br />http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/assisi/lower/ceiling/03christ.jpg<br /><br />What intrigues me in the Adoration of Giorgione, is that the characters all seem to look at something on the floor but, alas, the reproduction is cut below:<br /><br />http://www.lib-art.com/artgallery/10637-adoration-of-the-magi-giorgione.html<br /><br />Please excuse my English,<br />MagdaleneMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-31888031840720352562011-03-12T14:25:51.845-08:002011-03-12T14:25:51.845-08:00Madeleine:
You raise a very interesting point abo...Madeleine:<br /><br />You raise a very interesting point about the resemblance of the young magus in the Adoration to the woman of the Laura. Are you saying that<br />Giorgione painted MM into the Adoration of the Magi? I never looked at this painting too closely before but two of the Magi are kneeling close together. Th eldest one points to the youngest who still holds his gift, At first glance one would think that the standing man in green with the elaborate headpiece is one of the Magi but he has no gift.<br /><br />Or are you just saying that Giorgione used the same female model for the young magus that he did for the Laura? I certainly see the resemblance.<br /><br /> By the way, the 2006 Bellini, Giorgione, Titian catalog gave this painting to Giorgione but in a 2007 catalog Wolfgang Eller said it was not by Giorgione but more likely by Catena.<br /><br />About the Leonardo I do not see as much of a resemblance as you do.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-44096798822202838082011-03-12T12:53:15.494-08:002011-03-12T12:53:15.494-08:00Yes, Frank: look at the "queen mage" who...Yes, Frank: look at the "queen mage" who was Mary Magdalene in the "Adoration of the Magi" painted by Giorgione. And you will find your Laura:<br /><br />http://a34.idata.over-blog.com/200x331/1/00/82/27/000/reine3.jpg<br /><br />Thank you for looking too the "head of Christ" and compare it with Mary Magdalene, two paintings by Leonardo da Vinci (this is a personal discovery):<br /><br />http://a10.idata.over-blog.com/340x214/1/00/82/27/Christ/christMM1.jpg<br /><br />Regards,<br />MadeleineMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-32819380125922880582011-03-12T06:33:38.767-08:002011-03-12T06:33:38.767-08:00Madeleine:
I looked at your blog but my French is...Madeleine:<br /><br />I looked at your blog but my French is not good enough to really explore your views. Please correct me if I am wrong but I think you place undue emphasis on the role of the Magdalen after the Resurrection. I will follow your blog because I am very interested in depictions of MM in the Renaissance.<br /><br />I am planning a post on her in the near feature, You may have seen that I believe Giorgione's "Laura" is Mary Magdalen. Thanks for visiting my blog.<br /><br />Frank<br /><br />Thank you forDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-32786254136517348952011-03-12T02:01:28.808-08:002011-03-12T02:01:28.808-08:00Hello,
Please look at my blog dedicated to Mary M...Hello,<br /><br />Please look at my blog dedicated to Mary Magdalene.<br />You'll find some nice surprises...<br /><br />On this blog:<br /><br />http://marie-madeleine.over-blog.net/<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />MadeleineMadeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16947622298738100622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-53919127290040889712011-03-08T06:08:44.454-08:002011-03-08T06:08:44.454-08:00H:
ok, I stand corrected and thank you for taking...H:<br /><br />ok, I stand corrected and thank you for taking the time to research the Madonna of Humility for me. It is a legitimate subject but I still believe that the title has often been used incorrectly to describe scenes from the flight into Egypt.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-88922654612393491762011-03-07T18:05:36.669-08:002011-03-07T18:05:36.669-08:00Hello Frank.
I think there is a major difference...Hello Frank. <br /><br />I think there is a major difference between a descriptor such as "Virgin of the Rocks" and a tradition inherited from theological depictions in Medieval texts and images, which of course filtered into the Renaissance in a way that not enough art historians often give credit to (except Medieval art historians perhaps!)<br /><br />It's interesting to note the concept of humilitas is also something you will encounter when reading about Carpaccio's Knight - it being applied in that case to the noble youth portrayed in the enigmatic work. (See Cohen reference for more details).<br /><br />'Humilitas' applied to depictions of the Madonna and of virtuous Christians in general is not some 17th Century descriptor for Grand Tourists, such as "School of Athens" or "Virgin of The Rocks" This goes far deeper than that - one only needs to look at the Medieval antecedents, and dare I suggest the visual traditions of Byzantine and Coptic sacred art as well, which had a profound influence on Early Italian Renaissance art - Lippi's woodland Adoration being one of the more famous examples. <br /><br />HAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02091875643921165081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-2675995707259782952011-03-07T14:45:08.725-08:002011-03-07T14:45:08.725-08:00H;
Thanks for the comments and the references. I ...H;<br /><br />Thanks for the comments and the references. I will try to get Williamson's book and be willing to correct myself if necessary. My idea that no Renaissance painter or patron used the phrase "Madonna of Humility" is only an educated guess at this time.<br /><br />I have read Michiel's notes over and over and have never seen him describe a painting as a "Madonna of Humility." He uses " Our Lady with the Divine infant," or "Our Lady on the way to Egypt." Isabella d'Este never uses the phrase either.<br /><br />I agree that it has theological roots in the Middle Ages but think that as a descriptive term for a work of art, it only is employed later when critics and connoisseurs can't think of the real subject.<br /><br />Did Leonardo ever think that he was painting a "Virgin of the Rocks?" I don't think so. It's only because later historians were unfamiliar with the legend that claimed that the Madonna and her child met up with the child Baptist on their return from Egypt. According to one of the legends, Elizabeth and her son hid in a cave to escape Herod's soldiers.<br /><br />FrankDr. Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08469403843869655063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7054785923214156833.post-65823887692576954942011-03-07T07:35:23.987-08:002011-03-07T07:35:23.987-08:00Hello Frank. Again, a very interesting post - but ...Hello Frank. Again, a very interesting post - but I would like to tease out your point on the Madonna of Humility being a 'later invention'<br /><br />Looking at Medieval sources, one can go back to St Bernard of Clairvaux(12thC), and his descriptions of the 'humlilitas' of The Madonna - in particular in the sermon "In Dominica infra octavam Assumptionis" where it is stated "The Virgin Mary is an admirable example - she esteemed herself lowly and at the same time was magnanimous to believe in divine promises"<br /><br />Then we have the examples creeping into illuminated manuscripts in the mid 1300s, a concept further explored in the 2009 Book "The Madonna of Humility: Development, Dissemination and Reception, c. 1340-1400" By Beth Williamson<br />New York: Boydell Press.<br /><br />Bringing it to the Renaissance, what better example of a Renaissance artist depicting the Madonna Humilitas than Botticelli's Birth of Venus and Primavera looked at as a series? The Venus Pudica reference is obvious in the Venus Panel, with the accompanying central figure in the Primavera panel being also painted with the very same head tilt you observed - not to mention the hand gesture. It is such a wonderful suggestion of an overriding sacred theme amidst classical iconographic markers - one only need replace the central cupid with a dove in Primavera and you have your outdoors 'Madonna Humilitas' <br /><br />I'm pretty sure I have already sent you the article by David Bellingham on 'Deconstructing Aphrodite' which explores this in further detail. <br /><br />Since resolving to learn more about Medieval iconography, so much of Renaissance symbolism has made more sense. Again, I blame my formal education in art history for this - the syllabus I was handed so was so laden with Vasarian biases that we did not look at Medieval art beyond its architecture and stained glass :( <br /><br />Williamson's book is definitely worth tracking down, I have encountered it in my travels before(when researching Botticelli), but do not own a copy unfortunately. <br /><br />I'm also not sure what the contradiction Goffen is referirng to - I have a feeling she is applying a politicised, internal set of beliefs to her readings, rather than looking at the historical antedecents of these depictions. Her area of expertise takes her back to Giotto/1300, which in my opinion is not far back enough!<br /><br />Kind Regards<br />HAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02091875643921165081noreply@blogger.com